The Cart Barn Podcast

Chris Lemley (00:00)
Welcome back to the Cart Barn Podcast. This week we've got a special guest for you. ⁓ someone that you've ⁓ you've probably seen on the Goth Channel years ago. One of the first ⁓ instructors that was on the Golf Channel and has written several books. We'll cover some of that, but Jim McLean. Jim, welcome to the Cart Barn.

Jim (00:22)
Great to be with you boys. Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (00:24)
Thanks. Thanks for being here. ⁓ one of our first questions always is, did you spend any time in a cart barn growing up?

Jim (00:32)
Well, you know, I grew up in Seattle, Washington, and ⁓ yeah, I did a few things. I caddied when I was really young, ⁓ back in the old days, like when I was eleven and a little bit when I was twelve. I started playing quite a bit of golf at that point. When I was fifteen, I worked on the Greens crew some. ⁓ so we and and I also ⁓ parked the carts at night. We didn't have a cart barn.

Chris Lemley (00:59)
Yeah. Okay.

Jim (01:00)
at at our club. We parked outside and then ⁓ yeah, so I I I've been around everything at the at the golf course since I was quite young.

Gregg Dewalt (01:11)
when you were on the g on the the the ground screw, did you pray for rain every day when you showed up for work so you could hang out in the maintenance shed?

Jim (01:16)
Yeah.

yeah, well, I don't know if I did remember I don't really remember that. I remember laying that sod down for most of the summer on we did three fairways and raking the rocks away and flattening out. And there's a lot of ⁓ a lot of rocks and mounds and hill hills in Seattle, Washington. So it was you know, something you don't forget, let's put it that way.

Chris Lemley (01:45)
Yeah. Well that's some pretty country up there. It's a little different than down in the south east for sure.

Jim (01:52)
A lot different than Alabama where you guys are. ⁓ it's completely different kind of climate, different type of grass. So, ⁓ yeah, it's it was all over this United States it's it's so there's so many great places, so many great golf courses and and so many th you know things to experience.

Chris Lemley (02:12)
So Jim, when did when did golf kind of become a a a special thing for you?

Jim (02:17)
I'd say right there at about 11 or 12 years old. ⁓ my dad was a very good player. He was an engineer for Boeing aircraft in Seattle. ⁓ so I caddied for him and his buddies. They had some, they always played, they played 36 on Saturdays. ⁓ they had money games. They weren't huge money games, but to me they were pretty big and ⁓ it was really fun to listen to the competition out there.

And then ⁓ I started playing ⁓ a lot more. When I was eleven or twelve, I really started playing a quite a bit of golf.

Gregg Dewalt (02:56)
When when did you get into their money games?

Jim (03:00)
Well, I started no, you know, I didn't get in those money games till I was a little bit older, but we st we had had a lot of putting games, you know. We had a c a couple of putting greens at my course and we would put for hours on end for money. And ⁓ basically that's how I I lived, you know, when I was younger from mostly those putting games and then we started playing on the golf course more around 14 or 15.

Gregg Dewalt (03:31)
And what d h how soon were you taking everybody's money?

Jim (03:35)
Well, pretty soon. ⁓ you know, I was kind of depending on that for for my walking around money then. And I improved. I mean, I I got pretty good when I was young. And the we also luckily had some good players and some good juniors where I grew up. So that environment, of course, where you grow up makes such a huge difference. so we did have a lot of games.

Chris Lemley (04:00)
Sure.

Jim (04:07)
and ⁓ you know, not not nothing no huge games. You know, you you only win four or five dollars type of th thing. It was a long time ago, but it was enough to scrape by, you know, where I didn't have to actually have a real job.

Chris Lemley (04:17)
Yeah.

Well, the the junior rank the junior programs and tournaments and things were much different back then than they are today. So I think you ended up going to the University of Houston. Tell us a little bit about that process and how how you ended up picking Houston over ⁓ some of the other big schools that were were recruiting you.

Jim (04:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, well won some, you know, the tournaments in W Washington State in the Northwest and my dad sent me to the Western Junior when I was sixteen. It was in at the University of Purdue. So I got on an airplane and went there and I lost I lost in the semifinals. And then the next year I played good, pretty good in the US junior. Not great, but I but ⁓ okay. I got into match playing.

won a couple matches. So that put me on the radar more more in the national ⁓ view. So Coach Williams recruited in the Northwest. ⁓ he he recruited everywhere. He was a one of the reasons Coach Williams was such a great coach was his recruiting ability and writing you a lot of letters, ⁓ calling me on the phone, having a good player call me.

say Kermit Zarley, ⁓ I know nobody's gonna remember that name, but he was a good tour player who grew up, grew up right near near me in Seattle, Washington. And ⁓ so you know, he had some guys call you, and I I had had a good chance to go to Arizona State or Stanford or or Houston were kind of my last three picks. And then I just couldn't refuse to go to to Houston because I really wanted to play and

Chris Lemley (05:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Jim (06:15)
They had won, you know, a lot of he well, they'd won the last four NCAA championships when when I went there. And ⁓ we won the next two also when I was a freshman and sophomore. ⁓ so you know, there was they were it was a great place to go to if if you really wanted to play. And I really wanted to play. So I I I chose the University of Houston.

Gregg Dewalt (06:42)
Who's on the who's on your championship teams with you?

Jim (06:46)
Well, ⁓ the guys who y will be well known to or pretty well known to people would be ⁓ Bill Rogers, who won the British Open, Bruce Litzkey, was won fourteen times on the on the PGA tour. ⁓ John Mahaffey won the PGA. Fuzzy Zeller won the Masters and the US Open. ⁓ then we had some other really great, really tremendous players there as well that

Played maybe a little bit on the tour, but maybe not great tour players, but they were great college players. So we had 40 guys on the golf team. I when I came down there, I went into a dormitory ⁓ at Baldwin House, and there were you know 40 guys on one one floor. two and two, where there was a bathroom in between. ⁓ so it it was a wild place, you know, with

18, 19, 20 year old guys in there and ⁓ competing to ⁓ try and play. and it was pretty, you know, I I suffered as a freshman. ⁓ I got beat down pretty good. ⁓ I thought I was pretty good when I came. And ⁓ I found out I wasn't th that good. And you know, I I just I just kind of lost my confidence and whatever, like most of the guys and almost

Chris Lemley (08:03)
Yeah.

Jim (08:12)
Every freshman that came in with me left. They they all went somewhere else. and that included a couple of really good players, Jim Simons, who won multiple times on the tour and almost won the U.S. Open when he was an amateur. ⁓ a few other really guys that played really good at when they left. Jim Simons ended up being a first team All-American at Wake Forest. ⁓ you know.

I came back. I there's no way I wasn't coming back. And it took me a while as a sophomore. I finally made the team as a sophomore. ⁓ I did not make the ⁓ team that traveled to the NCAA. They won. So my first two years at Houston, we won the NCAA championships. ⁓ so that would have been six in a row. And ⁓ when I yeah, when we finished second my last two years, which was disappointing because we lost the University of Texas.

They had two pretty good players on there, ⁓ Tom Kite and Ben Crenshaw. So they were very tough. And the other guys were good at Texas too. ⁓ some really they were a tremendous team. We battled them all the time. We played them all the time in in the tournaments around Texas. And then ⁓ at the NCA, ⁓ they nip they nipped us there. So that was ⁓ disappointing. ⁓ we threw our trophies away when I was a senior, ⁓ runner up trophy.

Kind of wish I had it now, but it's all right. ⁓ but we were really disappointed to lose that one. We'd pretty much we'd beat Texas most of the time during the year, but ⁓ yeah, tremendous ⁓ competition, and that stuck with me my whole life. A lot of things I learned from Coach Williams really helped me as a teacher later on, and of course, playing with these guys who are really tremendous players and getting to know.

the other guys on the other teams we played against, ⁓ the competitive spirit, whatever, really ⁓ later on would help me a lot in teaching.

Gregg Dewalt (10:18)
I I guess i if you could get out of qualifying at Houston onto the travel team, you probably felt like you had a good chance to win the tournament, right?

Chris Lemley (10:18)
You know.

Yeah.

Jim (10:28)
Well, you had a chance, you had to beat the guys on our team. But ⁓ yeah, you you definitely had a chance. ⁓ I I won three tournaments during my time there and had a few of them s taken away from me, but ⁓ from guys on our team. ⁓ so it it was really it was really a tr a tremendous experience. John Mahaffey, my my s junior, I lived with John at school. I lived also lived with

with Litsky and Bill Rogers for th three years I was there. So that, you know, I got to see how, you know, these guys practiced differently. And John actually didn't make the team for much of his senior year. And then at the very end of the year, ⁓ coach and took him to the NCA and it was played at in Ohio at ⁓ the Scarlet course up there. And Mahaffey won it. So it was a good thing he brought him. And then

Chris Lemley (11:27)
Yeah.

Jim (11:28)
He ⁓ he of course went on to have a fabulous career on the PGA tour and you know, just a a tremendous player. But you know how golf goes, there's a little ups and downs in the game and different things happen in your life, different times of your life. And ⁓ you know, it can come and go this game.

Chris Lemley (11:49)
Yeah. It sure can. You know, to today's today's ⁓ college scene, the guys are flying private and got all these equipment deals and ⁓ but it wasn't like that even even for the dynasty at the University of Houston back then, was it?

Gregg Dewalt (11:50)
On a daily basis.

Jim (12:07)
no, no. No. We rarely we flew a few times to Albuquerque to play there my senior year, but my junior year we we drove. And in the history, we'd always driven to Albuquerque, which ⁓ from Houston to Albuquerque probably doesn't sound like that long a drive, but it's a monster drive. And ⁓ we had a few crazy things happen on the on the drive that my my junior year, but

most of tournaments we drove to around Texas and out to LSU to play every year. And ⁓ so mo most of it was driving. But yeah, my my son, one of my boys played at Oklahoma State and they flew private everywhere. ⁓ my other son played at Wake Forest and they flew to all their tournaments. So that's yeah, it's it is it's completely different now, that's for sure.

Gregg Dewalt (13:01)
Yep. The ⁓ back in when you were playing at Houston, was the v ⁓ physical fitness aspect of it a a thing? Did Coach Williams have y'all in the gym or was it just let's go beat balls and play?

Jim (13:12)
No. Yeah. Let's go beat balls and play is definitely their way. There's no no thought of physical ⁓ fitness at all. ⁓ now we we did some things to you know playing some games and things, but ⁓ yeah, no fitness. That that definitely came after after my time. My boys though when at school, yeah, they they were in the gym at you know 6 a.m. or 5 30 a.m.

⁓ doing the physical fitness, ⁓ which is such a major part of ⁓ of the game now. And ⁓ strengthening is is is much more significant. I I think for me and and like say my halfy, John and I played high school basketball. He played in Texas, I played in Seattle, but I played every sport. So I think, you know, we have we had strength because we we did other things, you know, that

And then also hitting, we hit a lot of golf balls back then. ⁓ we had our shag bag. So you'd you'd have a hundred balls in the bag and hit it five or six times on the weekends. ⁓ but when we went out to qualify, it was, you know, take two steps off the tips and play. But we qualified, you know, every single day that I would that we were at Houston ⁓ and when if you weren't on the team.

you were in a qualifying. So you'd qualify to move up and do a qualifying, and that's how we did it. We we played all the courses around Houston. ⁓ a lot of those days were an hour drive from University of Houston out to the course and an hour drive back. ⁓ so you know, we would be we had to be out of school at 12. ⁓ Houston wasn't wake for us, let's say. ⁓

Chris Lemley (15:08)
Yeah. We're we're

Jim (15:09)
as the qual quality of what you know we we were we had it pretty easy in school

Chris Lemley (15:13)
What were some of the courses that you played out there? 'Cause Houston's got a lot.

Jim (15:17)
Yeah, we played a lot of them. my favorite course was champions. ⁓ we didn't get to play there as often or Houston Country Club. two of the great courses. There's more there are more courses now, and some of them have changed names. ⁓ we played at Tasque Cita a lot and at Houston Exec and

I you know, there was just about every course we played. River Oaks was, you know, one of the b most beautiful places around. So that that was great to have the ability to go there and and play. So it was the there was a lot of different golf courses we play and we played a lot of tournaments as well. ⁓ there was no restrictions like they have now, how many tournaments you could play. So we played pretty much every week. I'm sure you guys did too. You know, you had a chance to really play a lot of

Chris Lemley (16:01)
yeah.

We did.

Jim (16:08)
competitive golf. So that was our thing at Houston. You know, you you were you were under pressure the whole time to to try to, you know, move up to try to make the team. And then once you were on the team, you're playing in the tournaments. And then of course you're trying to play good to keep your spot on the team and also of course to win to win these tournaments. And back then Coach Williams said, you know, that's that's 100% what we were is, you know, we were there to win tournaments. He made that very clear.

⁓ he was a huge ⁓ motivator, pro ⁓ promoter. He would al is always telling us, you know, how great we were, how good we were, how we could win tournaments. And, you know, we just had that winning in mind all the time. And I for sure that's helped me a a tremendous amount in my teaching of of tour players and and good players of the mental part of the game, ⁓ the importance of

of having a a a positive feeling about how of yourself and how you're doing and that you get a you know a good chance to do well.

Chris Lemley (17:17)
Jim, I was curious to as you're talking about some of the guys that were on the team and you know, Litzke was known as the guy that didn't practice that much after he got on tour. Was he like that when he was in college?

Jim (17:27)
Litzke? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Bruce is a was one of my very very best friends. He passed away at a very early age, you know, at six sixty-seven years old. And in ⁓ he he was as gifted as anybody that I've ever seen. He he hit the ball really long and super straight. ⁓ he was led the

Led the tour in driving nine times ⁓ in total driving and many, you know, numerous times in GIR. It was always near the top. And he never practiced. ⁓ his his brother ⁓ was his only teacher. ⁓ he had his way of playing. He hit the little fade. And when it turned into a slice, he would quit and for a week or two, and then he'd come back and play again.

He didn't practice at all when I lived with him for three years at Houston. He never practiced on the weekends. We all went and played, and he would just hang out at home. He'd sleep he could sleep till two in the afternoon, no problem. He was the greatest sleeper ever. He was the absolute opposite of me. I was high strung. I didn't sleep good. I was nervous. And Bruce was relaxed. He stayed with us in

when he came to play in the ⁓ in the ⁓ in the t tour events down here in in my in Miami, Fort Lauderdale. And ⁓ he just he would be leading a tournament and have a let's say he had a two o'clock tea time. He he would sleep till eleven and then have a leisurely late breakfast around noon. And then you'd go to the course and he just hit a few balls, really eating

He would hit maybe 30 balls ⁓ when he warmed up. The one thing people didn't know about Bruce, he was like super detailed with his yardage books. He walked everything off himself. He had everything drawn in on his on his books. He he was a very detailed guy in some respects. With the he had he was a car fanatic and his cars were perfect. when you went to Dallas to his house ⁓ or to his ranch, the

garage was you could eat off the floor, just perfect. His guns, he was a hunter, his fishing rods, everything. You know, that stuff was like tied up is and just perfect. But it's like he played with the same set of irons for 11 or 12 years. And I would say, Leaky, you know, why didn't why don't you get a new set of clubs? You know, you these are kind of worn out. And he said, well, I know exactly how far I hit these clubs.

You know, I I I don't really need to hit something further or better. These are good for me. And so he'd keep them as long as he could. ⁓ he wouldn't change. He'd use the same driver for forever. And, you know, he just wasn't that kind of guy that he he would he just knew what he was doing with the game of golf and he just stuck with it. And almost nobody I've ever met has been like that.

He's probably the most. Craig Stadler was a lot like that. Freddie Couple's kind of the same thing. ⁓ didn't worry much about his game at all.

Gregg Dewalt (20:58)
That's crazy that you can be a that caliber of a champion and not practice and just kind of aloof, I guess.

Jim (21:08)
Well, they have that p famous story. Everybody pretty n much knows that story. Maybe some of the younger people don't. Boy, he boy they put this cat, he put the banana in his head cover when he when he left in October. And then when he got back in yeah, the end of January, the you know, the banana was rotten because Bruce said he wasn't gonna hit any balls when he was gone for three months and and he didn't, you know. So he would just quit and then come back and play.

When when he was 48, I was out at PGA West for 17 years. I had my school there. And the tour event was there. We would play, ⁓ go out and play nine holes at night a few times during the week. And he hadn't played any when he came out. ⁓ again, he he'd quit like in September. And he and he he ⁓ he came out and we we were talking. I Well, Aki, how do you think you're gonna do this this week? He said, Pretty I think I'm gonna do

I'll do okay. But anyway, after four rounds, he was leading the tournament by three shots. And I had dinner with him that night, and he was playing with Ernie Ills and and Freddie Couples the next day, ⁓ on the fifth round. And ⁓ they they played five rounds in that Bob Hope classic during those years. And said, Leaky, this is unbelievable what you're doing. I you're just ⁓ just crazy. You didn't play all this time.

And he'd been playing a very limited schedule anyway at the end of his career. And I said, What are you gonna be are you be nervous out there tomorrow at all? And he's no, I said, No. I said, Do you think you're gonna win? He said, Yeah, I'm gonna I think I'll win. He now he wasn't cocky. He he was not a cocky guy. He didn't ever make any statements like that, but just between us talking and ⁓ he shot 300 in that last that last round and Freddie shot 66, and then he lost in a playoff.

But I thought that was one of the most amazing things to play a five round tournament like that and ⁓ shoot, I don't know how many 25 under or whatever, and and ⁓ play with those great players in the last round and and be able to, you know, play like that. But he was always that kind of guy. ⁓ one time I asked him at down at Durral, he he shot a bad first round. He always played good there. And I asked him what what went wrong today? And he said,

Hit my irons bad today. And I said, Well, would you ever would you ever think about hitting balls after the round? Like today, you did you didn't hit it good. Would you ever think about going to hit balls? And he goes, No, I say he said, Why, why would I do that? I said, Well, because you know, because you just hit it bad. Why wouldn't you go out and just hit some? He said, Jim, he said, Why would I go practice when I'm my swing was off today? And I would I would ingrain that swing.

I'm just gonna go to bed tonight. ⁓ if I drive it like I did today, my irons will probably be as good as they usually are, and I'll I'll probably play good. And that's he shot 66 the next day. And ⁓ it's just so opposite of the way I played. If I did, if I played bad, I would hit balls till dark, groove a bad swing, and you know, just worry all night and and ⁓ he he just wasn't like that. He's just the opposite of me. So it was always

Gregg Dewalt (24:25)
Yeah.

Jim (24:32)
I've always tried to get that kind of thinking into my students.

Chris Lemley (24:39)
Right. That's that's pretty logical though, talking about not ⁓ not practicing when you're when you're when you're swinging bad.

Gregg Dewalt (24:41)
Yeah, you know, y Yeah.

Jim (24:44)
Yeah. Yeah, it was a

Yeah, yeah. I I I completely agree. When I when he said it, it just I was kinda like I'd never even thought of it. And it was a brilliant statement, but almost nobody thinks like that. I would say most even amateurs if they play bad, they're gonna choke try and go hit balls right after and try and fix it. Might not be the best thing to do.

Gregg Dewalt (25:09)
You know, now these days you see famously Bryson De Chambeau ⁓ on the range at dark after his his rounds h just pounding balls and then you got Bruce Litsky the who was probably asleep or whatever.

Jim (25:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, he well, look, Bruce is a one of a kind, pretty much. ⁓ not too many people like that. ⁓ I'm not against hitting a lot of balls or practicing and working hard, but you also have to be mentally sharp. You have to be ⁓ physically feeling well. And one thing that's I think super underrated ⁓ among competitive players is that ability to sleep. ⁓ I worked a lot with Tom Kite. He had that kind of same ability where he could sleep.

10 or 11 hours, you know, leading a tournament. A Nicholas was like that, ⁓ w where they're really good sleepers. And ⁓ you know, if you're a worried kind of guy, which a lot of a lot of people are, it's it's not that easy if you're tossing and turning all night and not feeling well.

Gregg Dewalt (26:19)
So Jim, you know, nobody goes to Houston back in in that time frame thinking that you go there thinking I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna go play professionally on the PJ tour. ⁓ tell us a little bit about how you morphed from ⁓ a really good player into a teacher.

Jim (26:31)
Right.

Well, yeah, I wasn't thinking about it. Just like you said, I was thinking about being a tour player. And after I graduated from Houston, I didn't I I did graduate. What most people did not graduate out of Houston, but ⁓ I promised my parents I would. And ⁓ I turned professional. ⁓ back then there was no Cornferry tour. We played the mini tours. There's a big mini tour out in California. It was a six month deal you signed up for.

And then at the end of that time we had a tour school. so I did that for two years. ⁓ in my second year, ⁓ I went I stayed with Litzkey and Bill Rogers out there in California. We played eight rounds and Bill Rogers made it. Litzke missed by one, I missed by three, and ⁓ Litzkey went back and was

night watchman in Texas and ⁓ I went to Houston talked to Jackie Burke at at the at Champions about what what I'm gonna do. Cause you know, to be honest, I I was really I I was fr fried. I I was ⁓ I played competitive golf s since I was young. I'd had quite a bit of success. And then I was as I went into this mini tour golf, I I I had

Chris Lemley (27:42)
Ha ha.

Jim (28:07)
I won some tournaments and I I would did okay, but I was a bundle of nerves pretty much. And I talked to Jackie and I I took a job up in New York. ⁓ I had a job in Houston too. I could have taken in in real estate, but I went I went to New York to teach. And then Jackie said, look, you you know, you work for six months and you have six months off, so you can go play. ⁓ which is what I did. I went to ⁓ Westchester Country Club in New York and I taught there.

⁓ I sat with some really good teachers there. I learned a lot about teaching. ⁓ I found also that ⁓ my first year that I I enjoyed it. I didn't know if I would, ⁓ but I did I really enjoyed the teaching. I was mostly responsible for the junior program there. We had 1800 members at Westchester, so I had a really big hundred, you know, huge junior program. And ⁓

Chris Lemley (29:04)
Yeah.

Jim (29:07)
You know, I taught everybody, but teaching juniors really helped me you know, clean up what I was t what I was saying to them and and how I how I related to younger kids and it was a lot of fun.

Chris Lemley (29:23)
Cool. Westchester, that's not a bad place to hang.

Gregg Dewalt (29:23)
How how long did it kinda take you? Yeah, Westchesters. ⁓ how long did it kinda take you to kinda find your stride in the in the teaching? You mentioned, you know, how to communicate with with k and I think if you com communicate with a a ten or eleven year old, you can probably communicate with anybody.

Jim (29:27)
Yeah.

I agree. I tell all the young teachers that ⁓ come work for us that, you know, it's a blessing if you have a chance to work with kids when you when you start because you you've got to clear up things. You gotta keep the lessons interesting, entertaining, keep them moving. and it's not that e not that easy to do if you haven't taught, but ⁓ it you find out pretty quick if you if this is something you're gonna love to do.

And you're gonna be able to do you're gonna be able to stand out on that range for a long time and and ⁓ and teach all day long. ⁓ so ⁓ quite a few people cannot do that and they've going in some different direction in golf. But for me, I I I liked it. I always was an outdoor pro when I became a head professional as well, but ⁓ as far as my curve was when I

was at Westchester. I I w I was able to teach with Harry Cooper, Lighthorse Harry Cooper. He won 31 times on the PGA tour. Probably no one knows that name, but he was a great player and he'd been a professional for 65 years when I when he was there, he was an old old guy and ⁓ still had a lot of enthusiasm. ⁓ my my pro had worked under Harvey Penick in in Texas, Bob Watson. And

I had grown one my first teacher in Seattle what n when I started ⁓ about 16 with him was had worked for out for Cloud Harmon at Wingfoot and and ⁓ Tommy Armour in Boca Briton. So he and had played the tour for 20 years. So I I had a really knowledgeable teacher. His name was Al Mengert. And ⁓ so I you know, I had some pretty good teaching. I knew I knew a reasonable amount about the game.

And ⁓ I had a immediate success, I would say. And which of course anything you do that you that you you're successful at, you you enjoy it a lot more. And that got me going. And then I really started ⁓ in in the winter times, I would go take lessons myself from the the the most well known teachers, and I'd go s study what they were teaching, got to know them well.

⁓ Mr. Harmon, Claude Harmon was at Wingfoot down the street. So I got to know him. And then when I was the director of golf at Tamarisk ⁓ Rancho Mirage, California, he was right across the street at Morningside. So I I had lunch with him every week, went over to the range with him, spent a lot of time with Mr. Harmon. And then his boys are all Butch and Billy and Craig. And Dick was a really good friend of mine. So we we ended up doing a lot of things for the PGA.

And ⁓ I think that studying golf has just been something that I love to do. You know, I read a lot, I listened to videotapes, audio tapes, I mean, and I taped the guys that I I ⁓ worked with once once video came out, but I would take notes and just study, you know, what they were what they were all about. And it was just something that I I enjoyed doing.

Chris Lemley (33:06)
Do you still have those videos?

Jim (33:08)
I I do. I've got most everything. ⁓ got too many books upstairs here and ⁓ a lot of the audio tapes I I t I took of some really tr a lot. When I was in my second year at at Westchester, I met Ken Venturi. I was teaching his best friend in Texas in ⁓ in New York, the that he stayed with up there.

And he he invited me to come down to California. He played at Bermuda Dunes. And ⁓ that that winter I went down and worked with Venturi and then we became really good friends. So I ended up playing with Venturi a ton. So then I had Jackie Burke, Claude Harman, and Ken Venturi who are really good friends with Hogan. And I was, of course, super interested in Hogan, as most ⁓ most people are, most teachers. And you know, I really got firsthand in

information and also when I was at Houston, I was able to watch Hogan play because he would come down every every year, stay for a week or 10 days with Demerrit, Jimmy Demeritt and and ⁓ Jackie Burke, you know, too. They all grew up in Fort Worth, Texas. So all Texas boys and ⁓ you know I I would go out and ⁓ almost nobody there in the winter when he came down and watch him play

Chris Lemley (34:20)
yeah. Yeah.

Jim (34:30)
champions and also watch him hit balls. And then he also played in the tournament and ⁓ the Houston Open was played at champions. So he played that was actually the last tournament he played when he stumbled on the fourth hole, where he it really hurt his knee and he withdrew after 10 holes. That was the last tournament that Hogan played. But you know, having the opportunity to actually see the the guy play, the main man, play in person and watch him hit the ball and

you know, it was very few people out watching him when he when he came down to play with ⁓ with Jackie. Demarrett wouldn't wasn't wasn't playing at that time, but he he would, you know, ob obviously go spend time with Jimmy was one of his actually I think his very best friend in his life. So he would come down and see ⁓ Jimmy and then play with they they would play champions. ⁓ Jimmy's or Jackie's brother Jimmy would play with them, Jimmy Burke.

And ⁓ Mahaffey played a couple times with him, one that I watched. Jay Bear played with him, a few of those guys. ⁓ so you know, getting a you know, kind of an up close look at Hogan was really good. I snuck in one day and picked up his clubs and just hope he didn't walk in, but he had his clubs in the bag room. I was there late and nobody was around, and I went in and picked up his clubs. I wanted to feel those grips and

that coat hanger or whatever was down the back of you know the with a little bit of a weak grip. And ⁓ you know, just a great opportunity to s to watch the guy watch him play and practice. Really and also to talk to ⁓ his best friends about, you know, what was Hogan really doing? ⁓ how did he really practice? ⁓ and learning a lot about him because he's such a

huge person in in the game of golf.

Chris Lemley (36:33)
Gosh.

Gregg Dewalt (36:34)
I was gonna ask you, how many ⁓ how many five fundamentals books have you gone through in in your career?

Jim (36:41)
Well, I've got a few upstairs. I've read through them very carefully. You know, and it is amazing. The more you read the book, you'll see something that you didn't really pick up the first time. ⁓ he, of course, he's writ he wrote two books. The first book he wrote himself. I I I get to meet Valerie ⁓ and talk to her, and he said, Yeah, that he meticulously wrote that first book. Not a lot of writing in there, but if you look at his first book and his second book,

⁓ very similar Herbert Warren Wind was able to expand on the book and flower it up and and make it really beautiful to read. But ⁓ yeah Hogan wrote 19 pages on the grip ⁓ in in in that book and a lot of interesting things in there and ⁓ you know how the swing plane changed. He was way ahead of his time really

sh s showing a swing plane and ⁓ how he looked at a swing. There's a lot of he was way, way ahead. He really pushed the game forward.

Chris Lemley (37:53)
Yeah, he was. ⁓ that's pr that's incredible stories. We could sit here all day and talk about that. ⁓ is there anything that really stood out watching him practice?

Jim (38:05)
Well, he'd go out to the fourteenth hole at champions most of the time and and hit balls out there because it the gulf winds would blow in from right to left. So he always wanted to practice into the wind or with a right to left wind. ⁓ I never saw him practice the other way, but he but if if there was a left to right wind, he wouldn't hit too many balls. That's what Jackie told me. ⁓ just you know, he didn't want to practice that kind of movement in your in his swing.

So he'd hit a lot less balls and then he'd just find a place where he could go. ⁓ also, yeah, when he'd go down before the Masters with Cloud Harmon at Seminole, he went out to the 16th hole and practiced out out there. ⁓ Jackie told me when Hogan came later and and went out to the 14th hole and practiced when he played in the in that last Houston Open.

Chris Lemley (38:40)
get those hold shots into the wind.

Jim (39:02)
One of the other pros came in Jackie's office and and said, I c can I act talk to you for a minute. And Jackie said, Yeah, come on in. He said, Well, yeah, I see Mr. Hogan's out hits balls out on number fourteen. And Jackie said, Yeah, that's correct. And he said, Well, can I go out there and hit balls ⁓ out there? And he said, No, you have to go practice with everybody else on the on the range. And he said, Well, you know, I don't think that's fair.

And Jackie said, Well, the very second you win 63 PGA tour wins and and nine majors, I'll I'll you can go out there with him. So Hogan was revered, you know, especially in Texas, but probably all through the South for sure. But when you in Texas, he was so revered by everybody you talked to. And I I'd say ⁓ one of the more amazing things for me is ta talking to players like

Gregg Dewalt (39:38)
Yeah.

Jim (39:59)
Burke, who was a leading money winner and on the PGA tour and played in five Ryder Cup teams for America. And ⁓ Venturi, who won the US Open and Cloud Harmon won the Masters. And, you know, you'd ask them, you know, how good was how good was Hogan? And they and they said, you know, they put him, he was way better than me. You know, and it's like, wow, you know, they just had such reverence for him. Everybody had this reverence for Hogan. ⁓

And I spent some time, good, serious time with Sam Sneed too. And Sam said, you know, how how great he was. And Sneed was another one of those giants in the game, like Babe Ruth in in baseball. I mean, somebody that's never going away. So they're always going to talk about Sam Sneed and and Ben Hogan. But, you know, they put Hogan, you know, at that level that ⁓

You wouldn't really you know, normally, you know, with great players they're gonna think they're the best they're the best player, or at least as good as somebody else. But they all put Hogan up, you know, a s a stair w a step ahead.

Chris Lemley (41:08)
Yeah. Yeah, I got the opportunity to go ahead, Greg.

Gregg Dewalt (41:10)
What ⁓ what yeah, no, I was because w I know we're on a little bit of a time constraint here, we wanna get into your how did you kind of develop your teaching philosophy and what kind of separated you that you were able to attract, you know, all these tour professionals ⁓ into your stable?

Jim (41:30)
Well, I knew a lot of those guys from playing because because I played a lot of junior and amateur golf and and few years of professional golf. And I also played in a few US opens and and ⁓ some other tour events. So, you know, I kind of kept in in touch with the PGA tour even after I got to New York. But ⁓ you gotta get results.

You know, you gotta be able to get people to improve to to

to to to believe in what you're telling them. But for me, when I first started ⁓ working with guys, I think the first guy I really worked with was Peter Jacobson. And Peter came over to see me ⁓ when he came to New York and then he finished second at at Westchester. Bob Gilder hold the three wood for a two on the last hole in in New York and and beat Peter, but he was in the booth

And he just talked about coming over to work with me each night. You know, he'd come over to I was the head pro at Sunningdale. And he would he would come over there. And, you know, you start to get ⁓ that kind of national TV recognition. So that kind of that thing gets the ball rolling. And ⁓ I I knew Tom Kite really well. I worked with a lot with Tom when he mostly I wasn't, you know, you didn't go out and follow the tour, but I was at

you know, New York where they could come see me. And and then when I went to Durral, we had a a tour event there. So I was at Durral for 26 years. We had 20 25 straight years of the the tour event made it very easy. And also in Fort Lauderdale for the ⁓ the tournament we played up up there. ⁓ yes it was easy for me also if I wanted to, I could go up to Jacksonville or or to Orlando and work

work with guys that I was working with at that time. So ⁓ you know, you see have guys do well. ⁓ Billy Britton, who was a had been off the tour. I worked with him and then he went back and won. And Lenny Matisse won a few times on the tour, you know, where he'd been off the tour and back on. When I worked with Lenny straight for a lot of years. And then ⁓ you know, you keep working with different players. I think

Keegan Bradley was a big one. I started with him when he was playing the Hooters tour. Well, just out of college. He played ⁓ at St. John's, you know, not exactly in New York, not a ⁓ golf factory for sure. But ⁓ you know, then he won a he won a major championship. ⁓ I worked with Christy Kerr, she got to be number one in the world, Lexi Thompson.

Eric Compton that grew up here. These are these are kids I started as juniors that played on the on tours and and won. ⁓ so that's that's just it just accumulates. but I always kept the job, you know. I wasn't I didn't stay out on the tour full time. I went out with Gary Woodland. I worked with Gary moved down to Miami when I worked with him in 2015 and 16, and we went from the draw, I went to hitting the fade.

I've been a guy that's taught the fade to a lot of players because ⁓ you know, that's what ⁓ Hogan did. That's what Venturi, you know, when I've all the times I played with Venturi hit a hit a little fade. ⁓ so I think I've been really good at at teaching, you know, hitting the hitting the the fade with the driver for the guys. ⁓

I had a great time working with recently with Russell Henley ⁓ in 2022. You know, we we did a whole program on on ⁓ what his goals were because he had two little kids. He'd been a great, really great player, you know, and he just dropped off and said, you know, you you've got plenty of money, you've done well. But I mean, why what do you why are you coming to see me? And so we really dug in, you know.

What is what did he want to do? Well, he wanted to get back in the top 50. He'd never played on a national team. he played on a Walker Cup team, but he never played on the President's Cup team or a Ryder Cup team. He wanted to do that and wanted to play in the Masters again. He's from Georgia. He lives in Georgia now. So I think sometimes it's just like digging into the mental part with a player and and you know, bringing out some of this stuff of

What do they really want to do? What are they doing to on that part of the game? I I've always believed the game goes in four parts. The the long game, which switch everybody wants to work on, by the way, the driver that come to my golf schools, you know, they either want to be they want to get longer, they want to drive it better, maybe they want to get more consistent. But hitting the ball longer and driving is usually number one. And then there's the short game. So in a golf school, I which I've done a lot of golf schools, ⁓

Chris Lemley (46:23)
Yeah.

Jim (46:50)
in my life. I I I love doing those. we can get into the short game. Yeah, the putting short putting, long putting, chipping, pitching, bunker play, the four different types of bunker shots and and ⁓ that part of the game, which people don't work on, you know, amateurs don't work on hardly at all. And we got them for three days. ⁓ we do body drills every day. And and then ⁓ on the mint

on the mental game, we spend time on visualization, pre-shout routine, and then we play with them. So then we do management on the golf course. So those are the four parts, the game. And when I'm with a tour player, ⁓ anybody that I've come to see, you know, I'm I'm gonna sit down with them and we're gonna try and figure out where are we really trying to work on? Like what's what's keeping you from winning on the PGA tour or you know having big time success out there.

You know, what is it? And even a tour player wants it to be their ball striking, but a lot of times it's really not their ball striking.

Chris Lemley (47:59)
Well, yeah, I was gonna ask you if th is there when you're dealing w working with all these elite players, is there any common denominator that you that that you have to that that they're looking for that you're working with them on? I I mean you because you think about guys and and gals, because I know you've worked with and you mentioned Lexi, I think you maybe work with Scarlet now. you know, and she she's from Birmingham or and ⁓

Jim (48:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Chris Lemley (48:30)
But when you ⁓ when you're working with these these these elite players you think that there's you know there's really not much wrong with their game but there's always room for improvement. Is there any one thing that that would maybe be kind of a common denominator that you that you you work with each each one on?

Jim (48:51)
Well, I'd like to touch on Scarlet for a second. I know we don't have a lot of time, but ⁓ so she's ⁓ playing as a

Chris Lemley (49:06)
Hey Jim, I y you must have gotten a phone call.

Gregg Dewalt (49:13)
Yeah.

Chris Lemley (49:17)
Hey Jim. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you. You got your your recording stopped for a second. Did you get a phone call, perhaps?

Jim (49:23)
⁓ Maybe. What do I need to prove?

Chris Lemley (49:27)
You were you you you w the last part was ⁓ I wanna touch on scarlet.

Jim (49:31)
yeah, I see I see it says it's uploading. Are we still recording? Okay.

Gregg Dewalt (49:35)
Yeah. Yeah, you you just when you started to s talk about Scarlet, you kinda went mute for a minute.

Chris Lemley (49:35)
Yes.

Jim (49:40)
Okay. Well, you mentioned Scarlet. I and and I think it's a good example of what I would try to do. And and we just sat down, you know, and I talked to her quite a bit. And you know, she's been a tremendous junior golfer. ⁓ her mom's a a golf professional, has been her main teacher, done a great job. She had a beautiful you know, a real pretty swing. So we we decided to, you know, look at these, you know, I I videotaped her, looked

Know did all the work, booked track man with her, and ⁓ it turned out that one of the she told me she was a really good putter. So then I went out and we did a ⁓ a putting drill that I do with everybody, and she missed almost all of her, she made one, but she missed almost all of her left to right putts. So

I showed her a videotape. I video we we videotape it. I have an assistant that I've I did this forever. I hired an assistant one of my first as soon as I could when I became a head professional. And and I did that because of the stories that Al Mangert, I mentioned before, told me about working for Tommy Armour. And Armor had two assistants that did us lessons with him. So that was a big goal of mine. And I I had an assistant, I called him a cameraman.

But when I was teaching in New York, we used to do half hour lessons. Do you remember that? I mean, that was that was ⁓ how we did lessons and I taught most of day. So ⁓ it's hard to finish a lesson in a half an hour a lot of times. And I and I might have some things I needed them to do. ⁓ and when I was at Westchester, you know, I was by myself, so you just had to end the lesson. I was using a sequence camera then and I would usually write a few notes on the back of the sequence on the picture and give it give it to them. But

⁓ so

When I'm working with somebody, let's just get back to that. When I'm working with somebody, I I have to figure out what they're doing. So I've I've got this video of Charlotte and I show her putting stroke. So I also make the student involved in this. They got to be part of this lesson. I don't just tell them what to do. So I I'll said, what do you think of this stroke? And she said, Well, it doesn't look that great. I guess it doesn't look like your other your straight putts are right to left, does it?

Said no. I said, well, what's different? She said, well, I I looped the putter on my ⁓ left to writers. And I said, yeah. Well, why do you think you do that?

She goes, don't, I'm not sure. I said, Well, do you think maybe you under read left to right putts? She said, Well, maybe that maybe I do that. I said, Yeah, that's usually what it is, you know, you under read it and then you pull it to your to your line. But I said, that that's not really something I'd like to see you do. So then we really started working on putting. And my son is really good. ⁓ the one that my son John that works with me, that played at Oklahoma State.

He he really spent time with her on the on that putting and we really, really worked hard on left to right putts. And then with her swing, she's hitting just massively up on her driver, like eight or nine degrees up on her driver, and hitting mostly she'd hit big old hooks out there and too high, losing a lot of distance. And her her swing speed is too slow. ⁓

So I really worked hard on on leveling out her driver swing and and getting some better move to her over to her lead side. And really we're working on speed, getting to right now we're trying to, you know, get at least to 104, maybe 106 miles an hour. And she was down at 97, 98, but right in that area. So she's picked up some good speed. And that's a big thing that I work on.

Chris Lemley (53:48)
Yeah.

Jim (53:52)
and she she's been she's been the player of the year in the ACC in the first part of the year. She won twice. She's played really good. I mean, she's she does the work, you know. What can you know, she does the work. She she's hitting a lot of drivers. ⁓ she has a specific way of s ⁓ of setting up and to to make these improvements. I talked to her this morning. ⁓

So I'll I'll see her here in the next couple of days. ⁓ I've I I was sick this summer and I've been a little bit out of the ball game. ⁓ so just getting back right now to where I can get back over to the Biltmore and do some teaching. But we've been in contact. She sends me ⁓ clips, you know, to my phone. So I'm I'm sticking up with her. And ⁓ but that's the type of thing I've done with all these players, you know.

Like what do we need to do? How much do we need to do it? How hard are you working? Do you know what hard working is? Do you do you know what these other players are doing? ⁓ how good do you want to be? And ⁓ it's you know, for most people, it's just too good to be hard, you know, good, to be great. We all want to be great, but it's it's just it's too much time, too much effort. And

Chris Lemley (55:04)
Yeah. ⁓

Jim (55:21)
So I'm always working on inspiration, I guess, motivation and organization.

Chris Lemley (55:32)
Well, I don't want to rush this thing along, but I know ⁓ in the late in the late nineties you you had a book that came out called X Factor and ⁓ and you've you've got a new book that's coming out. You wanna talk a little bit about that.

Jim (55:42)
Yeah.

Well, I I wrote ⁓ an article for a golf magazine called The X Factor, and it was the the number one all-time best selling cover piece they did. That was in 1992. And then we followed that up with taking the X to Impact and and then finally the what I really wrote in was the four turns and the golf swings. So what I had written in was what does the head do in the swing? ⁓ how much does it turn? The show how much of the shoulders turn, how much do the hips turn, how much do the knees turn?

They thought that was way too complicated. So they went with the shoulders and the hips. And one of the writers that came in, I went down to New York City because they weren't going to do the articles, but they said if I came down and and talked to their writers, maybe maybe they would. So one of the writers said, you know, if you look down, ⁓ your shoulders and your hips make an X. Let's call it the X factor. And I said, Okay, that sounds that's fine with me. And ⁓ it it kind of exploded on.

Gregg Dewalt (56:44)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (56:50)
What was your body doing in the golf swing? Because until that time, in teaching, it was mostly hands and arms. All books were mostly hands and arms swinging, and the body would respond to the swing of the hands of the arms. So this was kind of the opposite that the arms and hands would respond to the body, ⁓ and how your body moved. ⁓ so when we do our when I teach my

Chris Lemley (57:04)
Yeah.

Jim (57:19)
Teachers, we we do hands and arms for infrequent golfers or beginners. You gotta learn to use your hands and golf, of course. And then when you get to an intermediate player, which is most of the people that we teach, we teach them an inside draw swing. And then when you get when you get to working with tour players, ⁓ which I've done a lot with, it's that you know, the hands and arms are are are going with the body.

So there's there's no mental focus on what my hands are doing through the through this the impact zone for sure. I mean that's that's when we know we're playing terrible when we're making hand saves and feeling the you know the hands when you're feeling great golf, I which I did with Venturi, he was so big on this. We you're going through, you're feeling like you're hitting a few golf balls, that the clubs feel stable.

Going through impact, that it's not flipping over. So my idea then was, you know, we teach differently at different levels of golf. So that's what I train my teachers ⁓ at the different golf schools. ⁓ so let me get back. What was the question again? What the ⁓ I I kind of miss. yeah. Yeah. So it's been.

Chris Lemley (58:37)
Well talking about your new book, X Factor Two.

Jim (58:43)
30 years since the X Factor book came after the articles, after I did a DVD, after I did the series on the golf channel, ⁓ 10 part series on the X Factor. Then I wrote the book. So it's kind of usually goes the other way. You write a book and then people ⁓ follow up on the book. But the book was the last thing for me. And then, you know, it's been 30 years since I wrote the book, and the X Factor is used worldwide. ⁓ all biomechanics ⁓ people use.

The idea of what is the, you know, creating an X, ⁓ the the difference between your shoulders and your hips, the differential, and then stretching the X. ⁓ the lower body, the feet, the knees, the hips start the downswing, not the shoulders, not the arms, not the hands. So it it was the sequential motion of of what's happening in the golf swing. And in the X factor two, I wrote.

You know, that I added one part to the kinematic sequence. Kinematic sequence has been the pelvis starts the downswing, then the shoulders, then the arms, then the hands. But I really think that it's the feet and knees that start the downswing. So I added like a fifth, a fifth kinematic sequence, the feet, knees, then the pelvis, then the shoulders, then the arms, then the hands. So you know, a little different thing into ⁓ a

addition to the X factor. And then you know what's happened since I wrote the X Factor, which was written before biomechanics. So now we have great biomechanics. ⁓ We've got gears and then we've got other things you can use your iPhone. It's not really that's not really 3D, but it it's pretty close. And then we've got the track man and foresight and now we've got force plates.

Chris Lemley (1:00:30)
Yeah.

Jim (1:00:40)
So you can use all of this technology to prove more things that are happening in the swing, how your feet are moving. ⁓ when we see a guy like Scotty Scheffler who's moving away from the target. So that's something I had written I've written about, but I I wrote more about it in this book, ⁓ where you're you're when you move away, it's called called a a counterfall. David Lee, who you guys probably knew, ⁓

Great teacher. He I spent a lot of time with David. He that's really the term he used. When you're coming into the ball, that there's ⁓ movement back and away from the target line. You're not falling into the ball. You've got your arms and hands and the club moving out to the target line. So you've got to counter that somehow. And it we with a lot of people we teach, we fall, you know, you see them fall into the ball. And then I would ask a person like,

Okay, if you're falling into the ball, what would you do to stop it? And I I tell them what they do. Usually they slow down, they swing easier. And I I'm trying to get them to hit the ball further. So they're gonna hit the ball further. They've got to counteract the movement of the force going out to the to the golf ball. And that's the you know, I kind of got that from from David Lee. ⁓ so that I write about that in the book. ⁓ you know, there's ⁓ there's a lot of things that that go into

To writing the the book, of course, and you know, putting all this together of what's happening in the swing. ⁓ what are the terminology that we're using right now? I write also about randomness, you know, that there are so many different things that we see happening. There's five trillion cells in a human being, there's 10 billion neurons going through their body.

⁓ everybody's built a little bit different. Everybody sees a little different, thinks a little different. So you've got to be able to work all of this into ⁓ the person you're teaching in front of you. ⁓ but it's definitely not one way. There's a lot of ways to teach this game. And ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ I I talk about those three levels ⁓ of of teaching. ⁓ talk a little bit about ⁓

Chris Lemley (1:02:56)
Yeah.

Jim (1:03:08)
You know, these some of these different players that I've worked with through the years and and and the progression of of the game of golf ⁓ through ⁓ now we really understand how important the body is to teaching the game of golf, to you know, having people balance their body, how they can move weight. You know, I obviously I I I talk about some of the things that have been taught. I started with the golf machine.

myself in 1973 and four. I worked on that with Ben Doyle down in California. And I went to see Homer Kelly in Seattle, where he's from. He he also worked he worked a little bit for Boeing. He was not an engineer, which you hear people talk about, ⁓ but he he was an assistant there for a year or so at Boeing. So that kind of gets thrown out of perspective. But I I brought the book back to my dad, who is an engineer and who is a very good player.

Chris Lemley (1:03:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jim (1:04:06)
played in three US senior amateurs when he as he got older. But ⁓ you know, he could read the book and you know, he could explain it to me. So I love the idea of the positions. ⁓ the golf machine had 12 positions that they taught. And then since then guys like Mackel Grady have made the P positions really big. He went to see Homer Kelly and

helped him become a tremendous player and also a tremendous teacher, really. But ⁓ I've used ⁓ 12 I love the positions actually, but I didn't like the positions in the golf machine. So ⁓ I had my own looks at positions from my I worked with a guy named Carl Welty out in California who is a tremendous researcher and we worked together all these years. And if you're studying videotape, you have to stop the video somewhere.

Chris Lemley (1:04:53)
Mm-hmm.

Jim (1:05:04)
And what I learned was that there were ranges or safety zones, I call them throughout a swings, and they're really wide on the backswing. So then the players I've worked with, there have been, you know, vastly different backswings. But once you change direction and start that downswing, we're looking at that club face. And if you know, from waist high to waist high, if you're very neutral, you're maybe a little inside out or a little outside in, but it's a very narrow range.

Coming into from ⁓ I call it, you know, the delivery position halfway down to halfway through, which I call the power line. And I talk about that in the X Factor 2 book, ⁓ of of a matchup happening there. But we see all types of grips, all star I all types of back swings, and they're still the best players in the world. So, you know, we tried to get down to what is important and

know how that body works is is ⁓ such a critical part of how you how you use your body and ⁓ I think all teachers or most teachers nowadays are are much more aware of this and you see a lot of the other methods that maybe been taught where some teachers have done a 360 degree turn on what they're teaching ⁓ because we see there's a loading for sure.

in hitting the ball a long ways and there's an unload and then there's an explode. There's the vertical ⁓ movement in the golf swing, which I didn't have in their first X Factor book. I showed how the pants rise. I had a page in there of ⁓ of how you move up through a golf ball, but I didn't talk about the vertical ground ground force reaction in in the first book. ⁓ I touched on it, but

We've learned so much more since then. So I think those are the those are the main things, the more main new things that are in that X Factor Two book, which will be coming out next month. And ⁓ well, we're doing this in in October, so I I'm not sure when this is coming out, but it'll be in in the end of November in 2026.

Chris Lemley (1:07:20)
Okay, great.

Gregg Dewalt (1:07:22)
That's awesome. ⁓ so where will people be able to get the book? Barnes and Noble, Amazon?

Jim (1:07:27)
Yeah, but yeah, Amazon. ⁓ there's an audio book too. ⁓ probably won't be out till December. ⁓ that'll be on Spotify and Amazon and ⁓ pretty much wherever you can get a book, ⁓ it'll it'll be out there. So I really appreciate you guys having me on. I you I've listened to your podcasts, they're real fun to listen to. I love the the whole Southern deal, you know.

Chris Lemley (1:07:45)
Okay.

Thank you.

Jim (1:07:56)
⁓ you guys bring out. for me when I went to school in Texas, I couldn't, you know, it was such a different world and being down in the South, ⁓ I don't know if you count Texas as being the South, but it was definitely the South to me at hu in Houston. And ⁓ I had a lot of friends of mine from from the South now and being in Florida, you know, I was in New York for 19 years and then

I moved down to Miami town to drill, and that's that's where I am now.

Chris Lemley (1:08:31)
Well, Jim, thank you for your kind words. Thank you for coming on and visiting us in the cart barn. ⁓ I hope we can get you back on soon. There's a whole lot of things that we ⁓ we didn't get to touch on, but but yeah, we'll put some links in the ⁓ when this releases, I'll let you know obviously, and we'll put links to the Amazon location so people can can get your book and I hope they will. But ⁓ thanks again for coming on. We really appreciate it.

Gregg Dewalt (1:08:57)
Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much.

Jim (1:09:00)
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.