The Cart Barn Podcast

J Chris Lemley (00:01.41)
Welcome back to the Cart Barn podcast. Super excited to welcome Gary Christian back into the Cart Barn this week. Gary joined us earlier in the year and he's joining us again today to talk about the Ryder Cup. Gary, welcome to the Cart Barn.

Gary (00:16.768)
Well, thanks for having me back. I feel like an honoured guest now, twice in a year. That's nice.

Gregg Dewalt (00:21.186)
You're our favorite Euro guest. You're also our only Euro guest.

J Chris Lemley (00:25.304)
There you go. Yeah.

Gary (00:27.19)
Well that's why I wore the England Three Lions on the chest there, just to make things even worse for what happened last week.

J Chris Lemley (00:37.166)
Well, let's let's get ready and go ahead Greg

Gregg Dewalt (00:38.114)
How surprised were you, not just maybe at the outcome, but how dominant the European side was early on?

Gary (00:51.081)
Yeah, mean, it was just, you you get the best players in the world and everything kind of falls into place where they're confident, they're swinging freely, they're just focusing on the hole on the greens and great things happen. It was unbelievable. The shots that we saw for the first two days from the Europeans was, I think, unlike any...

series of golf shots I've seen in my lifetime. There were so many great shots, many great approach shots, so many great parts, and then chip-ins at the crucial times. It was phenomenal watching. then the Americans did something very similar on a Sunday where they basically played error-free golf. And the Europeans played well on Sunday, but the Americans just played an incredible last round and were so close to overcoming the deficit.

J Chris Lemley (01:46.702)
Yeah. We, um, we covered in the, in the previous podcast that you, you played in, was it 2012 in the open with Tiger Woods at Beth Page Black.

Gary (02:03.445)
Well, it was actually at the Barclays in the FedEx Cup playoffs. And I was telling some friends the week or two before, I mean, it's gonna be carnage out there because what I experienced watching what he went through 13 years ago, and society has changed since then, and it's gotten way worse and way more toxic and way more poisonous. And to see what he went through then.

I knew that this Ryder Cup, hope anyway, it will be a tipping point because everything was unacceptable when I played with him and the stuff they were saying to him about his personal life. We were talking about actually walking down one hole and I said, know, dear, do you ever hear what the crowd says? And he says, yeah, I do, but I can't react because I can't make eye contact.

I can't do anything because then it becomes about me and it's not about the tournament and it just gets out of control. And so he just has to kind of plod down the middle of the fairway. And I think that was one of the reasons he enjoyed kind of talking with me and McAddy, just to kind of get his mind away from just avoiding having to make eye contact with people. And it was just, it was a really, really toxic environment then. And as I said, it's different now, society is different.

J Chris Lemley (03:18.008)
Mm-hmm.

Gary (03:26.133)
You know, people pay their entrance fee and they think that gives them free rein to do whatever they want and say whatever they want. So it was, as I said, I hope it's going to go the way of Phoenix did two years ago where it got out of control and the PGA tour and the tournament, you know, they said, we're not, we need to make some adjustments here. And I hope it will be the same thing with the Ryder Cup in the U S.

Gregg Dewalt (03:45.41)
Thank

J Chris Lemley (03:50.636)
Yeah, well, and that and so that, as you said, they pay their their entry and plus a little liquid encouragement.

Gregg Dewalt (03:51.19)
Yeah, I don't think.

Gary (03:57.949)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (03:59.138)
I don't think that the PGA of America did any favors or the pre-tournament hype was a lot about the New York crowds and how boisterous they are. You know, maybe I don't know that it would have made a difference if they had maybe downplayed that aspect, but you see so much these days, the Red Sox Yankees rivalry, the Patriots, the Giants, the Jets where it's rowdy environments.

Gary (04:10.162)
Mm. Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (04:27.97)
A little less rhetoric maybe would have helped a little bit because I think that just encouraged us.

Gary (04:33.468)
Yeah,

Gary (04:37.012)
Yeah. And it lends itself, know, football and basketball and, you know, baseball lend itself to that kind of environment because the crowd are, you know, hundreds of feet away from the players and, you know, it doesn't matter if people are saying stuff as someone's trying to pitch or trying to bat or trying to, you know, throw a touchdown. But when someone's 10 feet from someone shouting not very nice things before they ever hit the shot.

Yeah, you know, it's just not the environment you need to be doing that in. And it just it's it's it was a shame for me because it it took away from what I think was one of the best Ryder Cups ever, where, you know, the dominant, unbelievable performance of the Europeans for the first two days and then the incredible performance in the Americans on the final day, I think gets lost a little bit in everything else is what people are talking about and what they're going to remember from the 2025 Ryder Cup.

And, you know, obviously when you get an MC revving the crowd up at 7.30 in the morning, giving them license to say those things, you know, it just, there was no shock that it was going to just turn into what it turned into. And it's a real shame. you know, I'd like to see, I'm a member of the PGA of America and I would like to see them come out with something to lead me to believe that it will be different next time when it's in the U.S.

Gregg Dewalt (06:04.672)
I hope so because like you say, did tarnish the overall experience, I think, not just for the people on the grounds and the players, but the viewers as well. And it becomes a topic of conversation. We shouldn't be talking about that.

Gary (06:14.931)
Oh exactly, yeah. the mission statement of the PGA of America is to grow the game. Yeah, the mission statement of the PGA of America is to grow the game. If I had a six year old, eight year old, 10 year old, 15 year old kid, I'm not growing the game because if I go to that venue and listen to that, I'm going to say, golf's not for me. I don't want to be a part of this. This is not the way you grow the game.

And so they dropped the ball there, but they have an opportunity to, I think, to do something, to make a strong statement in addition to the vanilla statements that have been made to this point and say, hey, look, this was unacceptable. And we need to do better. We need to look at this differently. We need to look at what we say and how we do interviews, whatever it is.

just to get, it about the golf, not make it about the crowd and the trouble that came as a result of a complete breakdown in everything.

J Chris Lemley (07:17.772)
Yeah, I agree. I heard that Fitzpatrick's parents didn't even go back out there on Sunday because they didn't want hear it.

Gary (07:23.901)
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it should be the proudest day of your life to watch your son play in a Ryder Cup. And if you don't want to be out there and listen to what these people are saying about your kid, you know, that that just says it all. I mean, that that really says it all. And I was so proud of, you know, I've got to know Tom Watson over the years and I was so proud of the statement that he came out with that was what

everyone should be saying and what the PGA of America should be saying. I think what every former PGA, former Ryder Cup captain should be saying. Tom Watson was a former Ryder Cup captain, former player, obviously, and he said exactly what needed to be said. And it's not that complicated. And if you had everyone saying that similar thing, I think it would, it would change things very quickly.

Gregg Dewalt (08:14.87)
We certainly hope so moving forward. since we're a little bit of controversy, let's dive into the little bit of controversy with Justin Rose and the Caddy incident. How did you view that?

J Chris Lemley (08:15.31)
agree.

Gary (08:26.566)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, we would like to say it was a was a you know, it was a mistake of not knowing who was out. But you know, there is a very, you know, it's the same thing with Joe LaCava last time, where, know, the caddies don't need to be part of it. As a player, you learn pretty quickly, especially with the veterans, that the caddies need to stay out with things. They don't need to be

Anywhere where a player is and so it's just a sort of unwritten rule, you know a play a caddy doesn't get anywhere near a player when a player Even if he doesn't know if it's his turn to to play You know, you can't be anywhere near him and Justin Rose was you know was was very justified to tell him You know to get out of his get out of his side or get out of his line or get out of his eyesight And he said himself he could have done it a better way. He could have done it

in a more friendly way and a less confrontational way, but he was still in the right to tell him to get out of the way. And what Joe La Carva did a couple of years ago, for someone as experienced as him, he has to know better than that. And you cannot do that. That was ridiculous. if I was the king of the world, I would have said, Joe can't caddy the next day, because that was an unwritten

etiquette rule that he broke and he broke it, you know, not just slyly, not just subtly. He made a big deal about doing it on purpose and I didn't like that one bit.

Gregg Dewalt (10:08.609)
Should Bryson have kind of told his caddy to get out of the way? Would that have diffused the whole situation?

Gary (10:17.201)
Yeah, as a player, have the responsibility, your caddy is your responsibility. So ultimately it comes down to the player, know, how the caddy acts is then reflected on the player. And so if my caddy, when I was playing, did something wrong, that would come back to me in my group and after the round. And so, know, Bryson could have probably said something

and said, hey Greg, get out of the way. And then when Justin reacted the way he did, hey, make sure you go up and apologize to Justin Rose afterwards. That would have been the correct way to do it. But obviously, emotions were high and we're in the middle of this incredible Ryder Cup and you don't think straight. So you can see where things didn't go the way it should do, but then to see them walking up and seeing Ted Scott get involved with Molinari and...

see Fleetwood saying stuff and try and get between Molinari and Ted Scott. mean, Ted Scott's one of the most mild-mannered nicest people on the earth, but even he lost his head in the middle of a Ryder Cup and the frenzy, but I think that's turned on by the crowd. And it ultimately comes back to that, where people make bad decisions and decisions they would never ever do in a regular PGA Tour event because of all of this stuff that's going on outside the ropes.

J Chris Lemley (11:29.016)
Thank

Gary (11:41.974)
And it's almost like a WWE thing where it's it's chaos.

J Chris Lemley (11:47.232)
Yeah, that's a good analogy. Well.

Gregg Dewalt (11:49.409)
You don't equivocate a gulf with testosterone, but there definitely was a lot of testosterone flowing in the radical.

Gary (11:53.243)
No, I'm We got a lot of alpha males playing golf and there's some massive, massive egos out there. And so when you get that plus the toxic atmosphere, plus playing for your country or playing for your continent, you're just gonna get bad things. we understand that. We understand that the players don't act the way they would normally act and they act like...

J Chris Lemley (11:54.862)
Yeah.

Gary (12:22.838)
idiots on the golf course. But it's part of it and it's part of the show. But it's just all as a result of the Ryder Cup being hyped up and hopped up as much as it is with everything that goes on around it. So, you know, I'm glad it's only once every two years. Let's put it that way.

J Chris Lemley (12:41.015)
Gary, how significant is the win for Team Europe, especially being away? It's the first away victory, I think, since like 2012.

Gary (12:53.22)
Yeah, mean, it's a massive win because it's just so hard to win away from home. You know, the home team gets to set up the course, gets to set everything up the way they want to set it up, and they use analytics and data to do it, set it up the best they can. And Keegan Bradley himself said, hey, we messed up. We set it up too easy.

And that was a little part of it. There's not the advantage like it used to be with setups because all the Europeans basically only on the PGA Tour. So they're to quick greens, they're to fast fairways, they're used to relatively receptive greens. And so it's not like it used to be where it was, a lot of players would play at least half the year on the PGA, on the European Tour and putt on greens that were fast, slower with more rough. you would kind of...

set up the course to suit it. But it's, you know, there was 11 of the 12 who won in Rome playing in Europe. So they were a seasoned group. And it's for me, it was great to see how the players had kind of evolved. When you think about when Robert McIntyre was playing in Rome, you know, it was a feel good story. It was, wow, this is really cool. This, you know, Scotsman that, you know, we've heard of a little bit and, you know, he was a good character and we enjoy watching him.

Well, now he's a star in ball golf. And so he's evolved over those two years become some of that maybe the Europeans would rely on to be a, you know, a kind of a store walled of the team. But it's, you know, it's just going to make the next Ryder Cup in Ireland that much more spicy and the Americans are not going to want to get beaten again in Europe. And, you know, it's, they've not had a very good record over there, obviously over the last 20, 30 years. So once again, everything ratchets up, but

You know, there may be a rethinking how they go about things and how they analyze things and how they put teams together. you know, it's just, you would like to think you just put good players out and they will play against other good players. on a day, you know, one team will be another and another team, another be another. But there is more to it. The unheralded member of the European team was Eduardo Molinari.

Gary (15:12.847)
He went from an incredible player, think a former US amateur champion, a long time member of the DP World Tour, he still plays, but he has dedicated himself to the analytics and the data. And to be able to have someone like him who not only understands the data, but can kind of translate it into player speak as he's a great player.

I think he's the most unheralded member of that team. You Luke Donald did an incredible job, but Molinari, Eduardo, not Francesco, Eduardo was that person that certainly Luke has given an incredible amount of credit to.

J Chris Lemley (15:53.743)
Well, they've won nine out of the last 12. So, I mean, they're definitely dominating this, this, um, this competition. Why it's.

Gary (16:05.282)
I think it's, I'd like to say it's fairly simple. I don't think you can force chemistry. And I think there's genuine love and camaraderie with the European team. And I always feel like it's forced with the US team. And when you think of the superstars, know, Scotty Shappler is going to get his own house and he's going to have his own team and he's going to stay apart from everyone else. And they'll see each other in the practice round. They'll see each other at the tournament.

may see each other and play a dining, but as soon as everything finishes, everyone scurries off to their little private kingdom. You'll find the Europeans, a lot of live closer to each other, maybe around Jupiter, and they all hang out, and they do stuff together with their families. And I saw Tommy Fleetwood and Justin Rose go on vacation together before, I think it was Memphis, before Tommy and Justin kind of battled on the back nine.

it just looks more natural when I see, when I see the hugs at the end of a match, see genuine love and, and camaraderie with the Americans. I see kind of that, but I also see kind of a bro hug and let's, you know, let's, let's, let's prove how close we are. And we'll foot for one week a year. We'll be the best.

J Chris Lemley (17:16.824)
Yeah, that's a good point.

Gary (17:25.326)
best friends ever, but then the other 51 years, we're going to do everything we can to avoid each other. And it just doesn't, when you're in a team environment, especially for three days under that pressure, eventually, I think the true camaraderie kind of pulls you through when you're kind of struggling. mean, when you think about Rory McIlroy, Scotty Sheffield, played five rounds in three days. They were gassed in that last round. I they played terrible between them.

But it was because of, I think was because of fatigue and emotions and everything that came with it. They were just drained with every part of their game. But there's that ability to kind of just bring a little extra out of it with your team that you have spent this time with over the years, not just once every two years.

J Chris Lemley (18:15.852)
Wow, that's very insightful.

Gregg Dewalt (18:19.009)
When you saw the course set up, were you surprised at the way it was set up compared to when you played?

Gary (18:25.971)
I mean, you know that that sign on the first tee truly said it when I got there. remember playing the practice round and I called my wife and said, it's going to be a short week. I can't play this course. It's way too long. The roughs too high. You know, I'm hitting six irons and hybrids in the load of par fours and par threes. There's no chance I can compete. And then fortunately on Thursday morning, I woke up and the ball was going 20, 30 yards further because it was rolling. And now all of sudden I hit it straight and I could play that golf course. But

J Chris Lemley (18:27.63)
Thank

Gary (18:56.01)
When the roughs chop down and the greens, it doesn't matter what course you have. When the greens are receptive, it doesn't matter how long the course, how difficult the course is. The best players in the world are absolutely gonna flog it. There's no protection. I covered the PGA Championship at Valhalla, 7,600 yards. The ball was basically plugging when it landed and they shot about 20 under to win a major. know, soft courses are just no...

There's nothing to a PGA Tour player. And then when you have no rough of any note with the receptive greens, it was always going to be like that way. And it was a shame to me because it took one of the crown jewels of US golf and especially crown jewels of US golf that everyone has an opportunity to play. And it was just a vanilla golf course. Fortunately, the drama made up for that.

But I think there was so much drama because basically every hole was a birdie hole. Maybe that's what they wanted, I don't know. But Keegan said it where he regretted the setup.

Gregg Dewalt (20:03.721)
I think, you know, just watching it from afar, I guess maybe I expected a US Open type setup with long rough and, you know, and again, the fairways were so soft and they were playing preferred lies early on. It just, was a little disappointing to see him flag hunting on every hole, basically.

Gary (20:24.149)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's not much you can do in mother nature. And, and, know, if you have rain and it's softens, of course, there's nothing you can do about it. But if there's no rough, then you basically got 40 yard wide fairway. So you can just smash it as hard as you want and not have to worry about anything. So it, you know, it was a little bit of bomb and gouge. It was a little bit of, you know, we were really hoping to see Bethpage black and it's finery and it's, you know, it's, it's

being such a great course and we just sort of, you kind of a bland golf course, unfortunately. But you can't argue with the drama. So I guess they got it right in that respect.

Gregg Dewalt (21:04.956)
It looked like a course that Gary Christian can go shoot 63 on today.

J Chris Lemley (21:05.796)
You mentioned.

Gary (21:09.804)
Off the fronties potentially. If you only hit it 270, it doesn't matter how easy the course is, it ain't going to go well against these boys who are flying at 300. So I could get it ran in par. Let's put it that way. We'll do, we'll say that.

J Chris Lemley (21:13.027)
Hahaha.

J Chris Lemley (21:22.082)
That's the truth. Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (21:26.017)
You know, we've had, we haven't had Stuart Sink on and he talked about the analytics that go into the pairings and those types of deals. How much do the analytics really play into the outcomes or getting the correct pairings? Because, you know,

Gary (21:47.275)
think in the old days, because you didn't have analytics, there was all just hunches. Okay, he and he play well together or seem to be well matched and you didn't have to worry about it. But now you have data. They were talking about the Harris-English-Colin-Morocco pairing was, of all the potential pairings, was basically the bottom pairing and they played twice. And so there's no excuse for that because when you're using data and you put out a pair that are

are ranked in the strength of pairing that low, mean, anyone can figure that out. That wasn't going to go well. So, you know, there is a lot to it now, but there's also the captain's hunch, you know, like in baseball where the coach has a hunch that someone needs to come in out the ball pen because they just feel like this is the right play. There is a little bit of that, but the analytics are important. As I said, Eduardo Molinari, you know, he is the under

undervalued from the point of the media MVP of the Ryder Cup.

J Chris Lemley (22:50.606)
So I want to come back to that question, you just said something that I did not know, and that was the Murakawa English, they were at the bottom of the cohesiveness.

Gary (23:08.937)
There was some, I don't know what it was. There was some sort of equation. I'm sure Greg probably paid attention to it. I was just kind of, you you're just flicking through and they had this big list of potential pairings and those two were right at the bottom. And then what was surprising, they put them out again the next day. And so, you know, there's no excuse for that. If you're using data, if you're not using data, then fine, don't worry about it. But if you say you're using some sort of data, then.

you would think that that would be something that you would pay attention to.

J Chris Lemley (23:41.817)
So the reason that asked that question is because as Greg alluded to, when Stuart was on, he was a co-captain or vice captain in the president's cup, this last president's cup. And he shared with us on the podcast that the ranking by Scout, and there's another company that does all this data. I know that the Scout was also there at the president's cup. The number one pairing never happened.

Gary (24:10.121)
Mm.

J Chris Lemley (24:10.53)
were one pairing for the U S team and the presence cup, if I remember correctly was, Tony Finau and Russell Henley. And that, that, that they matched up the best they were in the upper 90. we lost. They were in the upper 90 percentile. And he said the reason that, that, pairing never took place is because Tony plays the least spinniest golf ball on tour.

Gary (24:28.658)
Mmm.

Gary (24:38.119)
Yeah.

J Chris Lemley (24:39.936)
And Russell plays the most. Russell needs the spin to get the ball up in the air. Tony obviously does not. And they just didn't feel like, and I think they might have even tested a little bit, that that was not gonna happen in alternate shot.

Gary (24:42.12)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Gary (24:56.167)
Yeah.

Yeah, mean, that's the thing. I get frustrated with data and analytics. It doesn't always show the context. And so, you know, the data would say you hit as close to the green as you can off the tee. Well, that's great if the flag's not cut over the edge of a bunker. Then obviously you need to lay back because you need more spin to be able to hold the green. And so there's also a data that, you know, you don't try and just...

miss it on one side because they show data of whoever misses it 50-50, some on the left, some on the right, about the same, but they say all they try and do is take out one side of the golf course. Well, that's the headline, but the context is if I try and avoid missing it left all the time, but I've got an out of bounds and a late down the right, I'm gonna miss it left because I can't miss it right. So that's why the data isn't always the context.

J Chris Lemley (25:54.232)
Sure.

Gary (25:54.524)
The context isn't always there. So you go on all the strokes gained and all the strengths and weaknesses of each player and you come up with that pairing. But then as you say, the context is, well, they're two completely different balls and we can't do that because both of them are going to struggle. So you always have to look at the context in addition to the data.

J Chris Lemley (26:19.914)
Absolutely agree. 100%. I guess the point that I was, the reason I brought that up is if that pairing that you referenced was the least and yet they played twice and in the president's cup, the best pairing on paper never happened because of the ball. I just find that very interesting that Keegan as the captain made that choice. That's interesting.

Gary (26:47.356)
Yeah, I mean, it's not really one I've heard an explanation for. That's the curious thing. So, yeah, I'd love to get the explanation of why. sometimes a captain has a hunch of, man, these guys in the room were just, yeah, they were so pissed that they lost. And man, just give me the ball. Let me play tomorrow. I'll guarantee I'll get your point. Sometimes it's as simple as that and the captain has no choice and says, okay, go out there.

J Chris Lemley (26:53.154)
Yeah.

Gary (27:16.675)
And it's great if you win, not so good if you lose.

J Chris Lemley (27:20.248)
So going back to Molinari and him being, you used the word MVP, explain that a little bit more. How is his understanding of this data contributing that much?

Gary (27:35.088)
Yeah, so, you know, every, every, most players, most top players have data guys. and they're usually computer wizards. and they can punch all the stuff. And I was talking to, I believe it was Billy Horschel. and he was talking about, he didn't like, TPC Los Kalinas, but his data guy said, Hey, this is a perfect golf course for you. And said, go play. And he finished fourth. And you know, the data guy.

won the day. But you get a lot of guys who have analyzed the data who, know, maybe their masters is in statisticians, statistics or something like that. Well, they've never played the game before. And so, you know, the numbers to them never lie. But if you have that, that understanding, and then you're a player, and you can translate all the numbers, and take out maybe some things that you could take out because you're a player, you understand.

then all of a sudden those numbers and that data becomes way more powerful. And that, I think, is why Eduardo was so useful because he could disseminate the information and disseminate it to a player's perspective and prove why.

J Chris Lemley (28:54.19)
It makes sense. Sounds like we're talking money ball.

Gary (28:56.935)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he did the same, the previous Ryder Cup and Luke gave him a lot of credit there as well. And so it's, I would love, you know, if I ever had a podcast or the ability to interview someone, I'd love to sit down with Eduardo and talk about that and talk about how, why, where, if there's hunches involved on top of the data, whatever it is, or if it's all 100 % data driven.

J Chris Lemley (29:22.203)
interesting. Greg you back.

Gregg Dewalt (29:24.884)
When there's no, I'm back. Sorry for leaving y'all for a minute, but technology is undefeated, I guess. When you get down to, Keegan's getting all kinds of blame for this defeat, then there's also the PGA of America has gotten some criticism about they need to change the process.

J Chris Lemley (29:33.294)
That's alright.

Gregg Dewalt (29:52.25)
Doesn't it just come down to players playing and you know the guys playing better is gonna are you gonna win?

Gary (29:59.726)
Yeah, I I think, you know, it's weird when the team plays great, the captain gets so much credit. And when the team gets outplayed, the losing captain gets so much blame. You know, the captains obviously have a big role, but ultimately, as you say, it comes down to the quality of the play and the ability to perform down the stretch for the last few holes.

turn losses into halves or losses into wins. And you know, can't legislate that. You can pull as hard you want as a captain. And once you've made those pairings, there's really not much else you can do apart from a little bit of information out there. you know, Keegan, you know, it was, was just a weird choice, wasn't it? Where, you know, the Europeans kind of have a line of succession of

You know, you kind of pay your dues as a player and then you kind of get on there maybe as a vice captain and you're around the team and you're around everything that goes on with the setup of the Ryder Cup. And basically Keegan was an outsider. And, you know, he basically said himself, hey, the only way I'm going to get to play on the Ryder Cup is to qualify automatically. I'm not going to get a pick. I'm not one of the in guys. And so it was a curious choice, you know.

I don't know how much of that was driven from Netflix, the full swing episode where, you know, it was just, you know, as someone who's been around the game, I've never seen a more powerful episode watching that phone call that Zach Johnson made to Keegan Bradley and seeing, you know, someone's spirit brushed. And then everyone, you know, kind of, you know, pulling for Keegan. And then, you know, maybe that was what

J Chris Lemley (31:37.187)
Mmm.

Gary (31:46.661)
calls the PGA to pick him as the next captain? I don't know. But it just didn't seem like, you know, maybe it was that out of the box choice of a captain that sometimes works great. It's a completely different look. It's a completely different angle from a captain's perspective. And, you know, they may have had a hunch like we were talking about and it ultimately didn't pay off. I think he's a good captain. I think the players really liked him. You know, you know...

J Chris Lemley (31:59.553)
Thank

Gary (32:16.612)
he gave the Europeans a lot of bulletin board fodder. They had that quote of his from Netflix about kicking their ass at Bethpage right in their team room. And they looked at that every moment they had an opportunity. so, you you saw how, you know, Luke Donovan was almost like a politician. He never gave anyone anything to use as bulletin board material. And when he did,

It was kind of clever, you know, talking about the money in the opening speech and, know, basically the players would play for nothing for the European team and, know, didn't mention, didn't talk about their Americans and the money situation, you know, personally, but it was intimated and everyone knew what he was talking about. So he was very, very clever, where he just got, you know, those little digs in without being too obvious about it. And, you know, he just played it. He played it perfectly.

Yeah, there is that line of succession and you look at the European team and it's a shame what Liv's done because obviously, Poulter, obviously Westwood would probably have been captains in the next few Ryder Cups and I don't know if that's ever gonna change and those bridges are gonna be mended, but it was great to see Tyrrell Hatton and John Rhonby such a big part of the team and be an integral part of it. So you never know, the Ryder Cup may...

begin the healing, who knows, I hope so. But you look at that team and you look at Justin Rose, obviously he'll be a sure fire captain. You look at the other players who have played a number of Ryder Cups that you would kind of almost say this year will be this person, this year will be that person. So they've got a really good set up there, they've got a good system and a successful system.

J Chris Lemley (34:08.802)
Yeah, absolutely they do. back to Luke Donald's comments, I thought they were in his opening remarks, very smooth and very rich.

Gary (34:19.886)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

J Chris Lemley (34:21.752)
So what are your thoughts about this pay for play?

Gary (34:27.106)
Yeah, I mean, in my understanding, the players have always had a charitable deduction made in their name. Always had it. And so, you if you say you're not going to take the money and you're going to give it to charity and you're already getting a charitable thing, I don't see what the point was of bringing that up, that we need to get a piece of the action if you're going to give it away. And so it just made another unnecessary gaffe.

for the US team to just have that as part of it. when these people watching the Ryder Cup see a bunch of multimillionaires complaining that they're not getting paid to play for their country, there was always going to be a little bit of second guessing and just when the Europeans were so adamant, I will pay to play on the Ryder Cup team.

This is everything to me. The thought of me making money on this is ridiculous. You know, it just, you know, and I understand the economics of it. The PGA of America make a load of money. And, you know, I could see where you would want to demand a part of the cut, but, you know, sometimes you've got to read the room and I don't think they read the room very well. And then it kind of all just sort of went the wrong way when they had to feel like they had to give it away to charity anyway.

J Chris Lemley (35:28.046)
Yeah.

Gary (35:55.192)
which they were already going to do with a donation for the PGA of America. I I played junior college golf with Brett Watterick. And I think when he played in the Ryder Cup, I think in his name, think Wallace State Community College was given a hundred thousand dollars from the PGA of America for his participation in the Ryder Cup. So it's just weird. It's strange.

I don't get it. mean, I would give my right leg to play for the European team in the Ryder Cup, so not that I'll be very good with one leg.

Gregg Dewalt (36:24.994)
I think the other kind of not controversy, but topic of discussion was the envelope rule. It got some criticism there. Why should a team get half a point when your guy can't play?

J Chris Lemley (36:25.87)
Understand that sentiment though.

Gary (36:38.243)
Mmm.

Gregg Dewalt (36:48.532)
I kind of go back to the whole Ryder Cup thing was kind of a gentleman's match. It wasn't cutthroat and that's where that rule evolved from. And now a lot of people are jumping on the rule. Are you happy with the rule or should it be changed or should you have a replacement player ready or?

Gary (36:54.721)
Exactly. Yeah.

Gary (37:01.325)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gary (37:08.927)
Yeah, I think it's the worst situation that you can have where, you know, if your team's got a healthy lead, you can maybe have three or four players theoretically say I'm injured. Obviously, Steve Pate had, you know, had an issue back in the 90s and they had to use that rule there. I think there was someone else that had to use that rule, Sam Torrance. But again, Luke Donald, again, played it beautifully. He was asked that question in the press conference and he said, hey, look,

J Chris Lemley (37:17.069)
Okay.

Gary (37:37.575)
we agree to this contract before the Ryder Cup. These are all the rules and this is what we've agreed to. We both signed this contract. He didn't say whether it was right or wrong. He just said, hey, look, we agree to this and maybe this Ryder Cup will say, hey, in the future, this is not going to be the rule and we're not going to sign these contracts if this is in there. That's fine with me. But, you know, it's a cliche, but it is what it is. It was in the contract. They agreed on it beforehand and they implemented that rule.

J Chris Lemley (38:06.99)
Would you change it now?

Gary (38:08.438)
Yes, absolutely, yeah, I mean I think it's a silly rule, but if both teams agree on it before, you can't change the rules halfway through because you're losing.

J Chris Lemley (38:16.098)
Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (38:17.77)
And like you mentioned, I mean, it's rarely come into play. So I think for me, the solution would be to have a replacement player on site. You know, because you do feel sorry for Harris English who didn't get to play a singles match. But yeah, I think the replacement player would be the way to go.

Gary (38:21.57)
Hmm.

Gary (38:39.148)
Yeah, yeah, it shouldn't be that complicated. you know, I'm surprised that no one's ever thought of that before. You got two years to figure it out. I'm surprised in the two years before this Ryder Cup, they didn't say, hey, this rules dumb. Why are we signing this? Why don't we have come to an agreement between the two teams to have a replacement play? It seems like that's just so easy to do, especially when there's so much interest in who makes the team, who misses out on the team.

Wouldn't it be great to be an alternate for the Ryder Cup and be part of the team and be sitting there on the sidelines just in case?

Gregg Dewalt (39:14.144)
It would have been a great out for Keegan to get to play. He could have named himself as the replacement player.

Gary (39:17.845)
Yeah, exactly. yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, I guess there's so much second guessing on that of not putting himself in the team. And it's just, you know, that's the beauty of the Ryder Cup. Let's take about let's take out all of the terrible stuff that went on outside the ropes. Every Ryder Cup, there's so much second guessing, you know, what if we'd have done this? What if we'd done that? What if Keegan had picked himself? What if he'd have given the captaincy to someone else? Who knows what would have happened?

You know, that's the beauty of sports and second guessing, isn't it?

J Chris Lemley (39:49.838)
Yep, agreed.

Gregg Dewalt (39:51.267)
Yeah, think hopefully we it will be remembered for like you mentioned earlier, the euros tremendous play the first two days and then, you know, around a finish for the ages and you know, Shane Lowry making a putt that you know, Chris and I mentioned earlier, you know what I don't know what happens if Shane misses that putt or if Russell Henley drains it before him. How those last few matches go but.

Gary (40:16.203)
Yeah. exactly. Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (40:18.506)
It was so, it was just, again, it was great theater aside from, you know, the fans and a few fans. I don't want to group every fan into that, but just the boisterous few.

Gary (40:28.322)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, you know, the thing that made me sad was I think let's say 20, it's definitely 30 years ago. If someone has said something like that or something that was going on constantly, the rest of the crowd would have told them to be quiet or they would have probably knocked their lights out. And now it's just, you need one idiot then leads to a load of idiots joining in.

J Chris Lemley (40:51.426)
Yeah.

Gary (40:57.205)
And I think that's the change and that's societal. It's the golf audience has changed completely. You know, the, the, Europeans that come over to support their team are mostly golfers. They, they understand the game. They love the game. They play the game. And maybe a lot of the, people who turned up this week were just there for the show to say they were at the Ryder Cup and to say that, you know, here's my, here's my Instagram picture of me at the Ryder Cup shouting at Rory.

Um, you know, it just, it's just a shame the way it's gone. And, know, I didn't know if the reason they charged $750 was to keep the riff raff out. It didn't work. Um, it didn't work charging $15 a beer. So I don't know how they're to do it, but they, they have to make things different next time in, in how that they police outside the ropes.

to make sure that the story of the Ryder Cup is the play and the players and not the crowd. Now hopefully we're in Minnesota next time. They're very nice up there in the Midwest. it's a better quality. We'll see.

Gregg Dewalt (41:57.986)
you

Gregg Dewalt (42:01.931)
I hope so. And you know, and it doesn't help that you've got four matches out on a course early and all the crowd is around those four matches. know, the fans are not that spread out. But yeah, I hope it's remembered for the good finish, the quality of the play, which was tremendous. We haven't even talked much about the shot, shot after shot after shot that, you know, somebody would hit it in five feet and somebody else would come right behind him and hit him the two feet and

Gary (42:10.901)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Gary (42:31.497)
Yeah.

Gregg Dewalt (42:32.182)
John Rahm's chip in that was the shot I think I'll remember the most outside of Schoenlauery making the putt.

J Chris Lemley (42:36.994)
That was incredible.

Gary (42:37.363)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. When I was just starting in golf, know, the Ryder Cup is such a big deal. And I remember I had a video of the 87 Ryder Cup at Mewfield Village and I just watched that and rewatched it. And, know, I dreamt of playing in the Ryder Cup as a result of watching that video. And I just remember that it was similar quality of play there, especially in the four ball on the Saturday afternoon. I think it was just shot after shot after shot was

you know, just rifle straight at the flag and people making birdies left right and center. And it was just, it gave me vibes of that, of just people taking dead aim. And when you see these great players playing, you know, free where they're not thinking of what if I miss, they're just taking dead aim. And you see that's why they hit these incredible iron shots. And then that's why they make it. It feels like every 15 footer. I've never seen so many 15 footers made, you know, the, the make rate on the PGA turf and 15 feet is about 20.

5%, something like that. It felt like they made 75 % of them. But that's what happens when the elite athlete, their mind is just 100 % on the target and then just letting it go and not worrying about anything else. And I think that's the frustration with lot of these players. Why can't I do this in a regular PGA Tour event every single week? know, this is the, I've got the secret right here. I'm doing these incredible things. You know, to watch Justin Rose make putt after putt after putt at 45 years old.

And I think he said in the press conference, know, he just wishes he could tap into this when he's playing every single week. you know, it's just, you know, it's just, it's an incredible spectacle. just going back to that 87 rider cup, you know, I think a big part of that again, is a little bit cultural where, you know, you know, I've lived in America 30 odd years and you obviously it's sort of the rugged individualism is what we revere and what we put on a pedestal.

And so, you when I was playing professionally, I always felt like every single player, every single American player on the PGA Tour just thought, man, I can win a major, I can do this, I can do anything I put my mind to. And it may not be realistic, you know, but it's kind of that was their mindset. And I think as a European growing up, obviously I knew, you know, I wasn't a great player, but I thought, man, maybe if I could make it to the PGA Tour or the European Tour.

Gary (45:04.779)
Maybe I could just have one of those years and make the Ryder Cup and be one of the top 12 in Europe, not the number one player in a major. And I think there was a little bit more of that realistic thinking where, yeah, there's maybe a number of those players on the European team who will say, yeah, obviously I can win a bunch of majors, but maybe deep down they don't 100 % believe that. So maybe the Ryder Cup is their major. And for them to be on a winning Ryder Cup team,

is like winning a major and it's that realistic achievement that they can at the end of their career say, I achieved my goal. And it's hard to win a major. There's not many of them in your career and you're playing against a load of great players, but you can be one of 12 that can do something spectacular like we've just seen here. So those 12 will end up being heroes that will be remembered for 20, 30, 40 years.

J Chris Lemley (45:54.613)
task before you.

Gary (46:01.992)
when you think of Hoygar where he comes from and Victor Hovland where he comes from, they will be put on a pedestal for life of representing their country and achieving something great just the same way as Hideki Matsuyama winning the Masters. He's bigger in Japan than Tiger is in the US because it was just an achievement that it captured a nation and it captured everyone's imagination over there.

Gregg Dewalt (46:27.234)
That's some really great perspective that you provided, Gary. A lot of interesting comments and just even keel. I didn't expect you to come out with a flag wrapped around you, but.

J Chris Lemley (46:30.337)
Absolutely.

Gary (46:40.145)
Yeah

J Chris Lemley (46:47.19)
Hahaha!

Gary (46:48.734)
Well, I was hot and sweaty coming off the golf course and I felt at least I should change shirts and it just so happened that was the one I saw in my drawer.

Gregg Dewalt (46:55.842)
Just a coincidence.

J Chris Lemley (46:56.373)
no worries.

J Chris Lemley (47:01.166)
Which player surprised you the most this week, either good or bad?

Gary (47:11.694)
There was something about Justin Thomas that surprised me in a good way in that last round to be able to hit the shots that he hit down the stretch and make more importantly make the pass because he's he's struggling a little bit with the passing over the years. The last few years in particular. But it just he looked like the world class player that he is. When I saw him playing down the stretch, I thought

Well, there's no reason that Justin Thomas can't go win three or four more majors because to perform, hit the shots that he hit under pressure when he absolutely needed it to, I thought was something pretty special. Tommy Fleet would to me surprise me. He shouldn't have surprised me, but obviously he's record in the Ryder Cup. It's unbelievable, isn't it? Especially in the team part of the Ryder Cup, basically undefeated.

And I think that win in the FedExCup playoffs, I think just elevated him internally to finally believe it. He's always said he believes it and he did believe it. But sometimes you've got to get a win just to justify that and validate it. he just, I think this experience of him having a little bit of pressure on him like he did.

J Chris Lemley (48:22.744)
Yeah.

Gary (48:31.453)
to perform as someone who's just done as well as he's done in the FedEx Cup playoffs and then to back it up with the performance and most importantly hit the shots when he needed to, make the putts when he needed to. It was just phenomenal and again someone you think now he's got that first PGA Tour went out of the way. How many does that lead to? Does that lead to five to ten by the end of his crib? I think there's every chance that that's the case but does that also lead to a couple three majors as well? And I think

Maybe an experience like this would certainly lend itself to that. As disappointments, maybe just players had poor weeks. Russell Henley, number three in the world, didn't play like a number three player in the world. They made so much of the big guns have got to perform. So Bryce and Scotty Schaeffler didn't perform the way that they would have expected to for points.

J Chris Lemley (49:22.008)
Yeah.

Gary (49:27.932)
But with the number three player in the world, you would have expected him to have played probably five matches and maybe taken two and a half, three points at a bare minimum. And he didn't either. And then obviously, you know, had opportunities to close out his match in the final day and didn't. So, you know, I think that will be a tough one for him where, you know, he's had an incredible year. mean, just an incredible year of consistent performance and sometimes

the expectations maybe got very, very high and he didn't live up to them. That's going be a tough one for him. I'll be really interested to see how he bounces back from that, whether he'll play in the FedEx Cup fall series, maybe a few events, some great locations. There's some in the South, Sea Island would be a great place for him to go. I'll be really interested to see how he finishes the year if he plays anymore.

Gregg Dewalt (50:22.85)
I think mentioning Tommy Fleetwood's performance, his win in the FedEx, that could, as you mentioned, really boy him towards a great next part of his career. But being a journalist, one of the tired storylines, I think, is people's records in the Ryder Cup, or this guy's never won a major. Monty was saddled with that. Rory was saddled with

Will he ever win the career Grand Slam? I think those are a little bit, they're easy storylines for people, but I think they're tired because, you know, it's not easy to win majors. It's not easy, you know, there's only four of them every year. So doesn't mean you're a terrible player because you don't win a major. I like to see different storylines, but again, they're easy storylines. know, Tiger's record in the Ryder Cup.

Gary (51:01.552)
Yes, go.

Gary (51:11.344)
Yeah.

J Chris Lemley (51:11.724)
Right.

Gregg Dewalt (51:20.994)
It doesn't do much for me when I hear those storylines.

Gary (51:25.628)
Hmm, yeah.

J Chris Lemley (51:30.082)
Well, Greg, do you have anything else?

Gregg Dewalt (51:32.866)
That's probably a good place, me and my soapbox.

Gary (51:36.742)
Yeah, I like that soapbox. That was impressive. Very nice.

Gregg Dewalt (51:38.338)
I'm always looking for different angles, so anyway, yeah, I think that's a good place to kind of leave this year's Ryder Cup in the past and look forward for two years.

J Chris Lemley (51:48.387)
Yeah.

Gary (51:54.15)
Yeah, what I would like to say that again, I go back to the live PGA Tour schism. Yeah, to see Bryson, the popularity of Bryson, to see the popularity of John Rahm. You know, I think they just relished that atmosphere and that event and the size of it and, you know, the worldwide appeal that they maybe wouldn't get week to week on the live tour. And you just...

J Chris Lemley (51:54.264)
Gary.

Gary (52:22.235)
hope and wish and pray that they're going to figure out a way to get these guys playing against each other week to week because it's box office. Now I was at the PGA this year at Quo Hollow and with Rahm and Bryson making a charge on that last round, the crowds were the biggest crowds. They had the biggest crowds coming down the stretch and they're playing against Scottie Shaffer, number one player in the world who dominated the PGA Tour. you know, I would love to see somehow

I don't know how they're going to do it. I don't know who's going to be the glue. But to see those guys play week to week, this is one of another reason it made it so special. to see those guys just going head to head and looking like they're part of the team. John Rahm, he was an integral part of that team. There was no standoff to the side. He was in the middle of everything. And Bryson, his performance, especially in that last day to come back from the way he came back.

J Chris Lemley (53:17.23)
Mm-hmm.

Gary (53:17.754)
It was spectacular and just you know that the energy of the crowd when Bryson started to chip away at that lead I mean it was to me that was kind of the turning point in that last round to see you know an easy European point Little by little by little get chipped away and then the noise of the crowd and the energy Just picked up and he did everything he could to bolster that even more by charging up to the tee and striding off down down to the green and

pumping everyone up and raising his arms. That was great. And that's what you want to see with the players. You want to see that. You don't need the bad stuff. That's fine. And the European players would have loved watching that as well. And they didn't think there was anything wrong with that. So these players, they have thick skins. And they understand that it's about the show and it's about entertaining. And if we are pumping up the crowd and we're raising our fists and we're...

acting like idiots on the green, that's fine, that's all part of it. They didn't have a problem with that. It was just the way the crowd reacted to it and not understanding kind of what should be an expectation.

J Chris Lemley (54:25.752)
Yeah, well said and agree 100%.

Gregg Dewalt (54:26.521)
Exactly. Well, Gary, thank you so much for joining us, taking Carmen a little bit of time out of your post-game match today at Inverness.

Gary (54:36.834)
My pleasure. So when I'm on it the third time do I get a hat or a blazer or something? You know, it's got to be special. I like the sound of it.

J Chris Lemley (54:41.93)
Absolutely, yeah, a a sleeve of balls.

Gregg Dewalt (54:44.064)
Will it? Yeah.

J Chris Lemley (54:47.82)
Now, thanks again, Gary. We appreciate it. As always, very insightful and appreciate you spending a few minutes with us on the cardboard.

Gregg Dewalt (54:47.948)
Okay, no, thanks a lot.

Gary (54:58.586)
Not a problem, enjoy it fellas, we'll do it again soon.

Gregg Dewalt (55:01.165)
Perfect.